Vitex not for PMS.
So OK, we've all been taught that vitex (Vitex agnus-castus) helps the progesterone part of the cycle.
However, vitex really isn't all that good an idea. Paul Bergner has been diving into the science of it, and posted on the herblist:
- Henriette wrote:
> Paul Bergner has looked into this: "Magnesium citrate 600 mg, B6 (in a complex of 25-50 per B vitamin) and Zn (40 mg/day) for 6-12 weeks may help." - if you want to butt in here, Paul, please do.Vitex probably affects the hormones by stimulating dopamine in the hypothalamus. This in turn suppresses prolactin and favors progesterone. That's the best we know from science, though there may be more to come. So the question is why is somebody dopamine deficient in the first place. The following are all required for dopamine manufacture:
Magnesium, B-6, Zinc, essential fatty acids, vitamin C, and iron. In our clinic we have repeatedly corrected hormonal imbalances with such a fundamental dietary and supplement program, within 2 cycles, and this also helped with addictions, which may also be related to low dopamine.
And, BTW, chocolate and orange juice are also dopaminergic, so by all means include that in your program. A 1-ounce dose of dark chocolate affects dopamine.
Taking vitex so solve the problem makes as much sense as taking caffeine to cure fatigue. It will worsen the underlying problem while masking it.
I had a student with bleeding around ovulation who had followed an herbalists advice to take vitex for the problem. She ended up within two cycles bleeding for 28 days straight. Many other cases reported of vitex disrupting the cycle and making matters worse or at least making them strange and unusual.
Favoring progesterone, vitex can also lead to the common side effect of progesterone -- depression. I had two cases of women with premenstrual depression who took vitex and the depression worsened severely enough for one of them to seriously contemplate suicide and the other to go on antidepressant drugs. Neither related it to the vitex, but on removal in the case of the suicidal woman, the suicidal ideation went away. This is not a wise woman herb.
Gotta love this stuff. Thanks Paul!
Hmmm, addictions. Wonder if that's why Vitex has been so good for the "gimme (whatever), gotta have it now!" shakes? Drop doses as needed work wonders; of course, for addicts who are trying to drop their habit I've also included loads of supplements, including the ones Paul outlined above, so while they took the Vitex for the immediate symptom they also helped the cause of that symptom - the deeper deficiency.
Comments are now CLOSED.
Like Paul says: "The
Like Paul says: "The following are all required for dopamine manufacture: Magnesium, B-6, Zinc, essential fatty acids, vitamin C, and iron."
A western lifestyle with lots of stress (depletes nutrients) and overt or covert syndrome x (hyperinsulinemia depletes nutrients) will lead to lots of hormonal trouble. Hyperinsulinemia (syndrome x) is the cause of most diagnosed low thyroids.
Read the hyperinsulinemia posts on this blog and change your lifestyle: add missing nutrients, ditch the simple carbs, and exercise.
If she has PCOS you (and
If she has PCOS you (and she) should read the syndrome x posts of this blog.
Vitex raises the
Vitex raises the progesterone which you couldn't produce because you were low on essential minerals ... by raiding your reserves of said minerals. Once those reserves are gone, you crash. Badly.
In addition, too much progesterone in itself will cause depression.
The important lesson to take away from this one is, don't remove your symptoms unless you know their cause - and, once you know the cause (missing nutrients), address that (= take your magnesium, chromium, zinc, B6, E, fish oil etc.).
Or, if you have to take the magic herb which will remove all your ouchies, also take the nutrients which the magic herb depletes.
As to why nobody talks about vitex bringing on depression etc., that's because not very many people dive into the physiology of herbs - and while some (like Paul Bergner) do, not very many people have the time to stay on top of things.
Paul Bergner is of course exceptional, but who knows that, if you don't count us practising herbalists? (... we take pains to follow what he's doing, because it's very often very relevant to what we do.)
So you'll continue to see books and articles which will gush on about the way vitex works for PMS ... for decades to come.
Dunno, why not ask a
Dunno, why not ask a nutritionist close to you?
Again: vitex masks your
Again: vitex masks your mineral deficiencies. DO THOSE. You'll absolutely HAVE to add the missing nutrients if you do vitex, or you'll crash (badly) later.
That'd qualify as a crash,
That'd qualify as a crash, yes. Now please start doing the missing nutrients ...
Cool!
I read somewhere, not all that long ago, that whenever you hear "cramps" you should think "magnesium". Sounds sound to me, provided you do the Bs, too, and fish oil, and ...
Thanks
Just stumbled on your site today. Wish I had done so earlier... It would've saved me 20$ and the concern that I was going nutso. What Paul says makes total sense! Last year, a doc told me I was low on B6, magnesium and VERY deficient in zinc. It's no wonder then that I have so many menstrual issues (PCOS is somewhat under control, but still have fibroids and endo.) Been taking Vitex for only a week now and the bottle is going in the bin today. With a few dietary changes, I believe I can turn this thing around without doing a kamikazi crash-an-burn. As for Vitex, anyone who tells you it's 100% safe and there isn't any drastic side-effects is lying through their teeth!! After only a week of the stuff, I was experiencing strange behavioural changes such as crying at the drop of a hat, debilitating fatigue, and NASTY dizzy spells!! This stuff just isn't for me!
It's smarter to ditch the
It's smarter to ditch the vitex and do the missing nutrients already.
The progesterone cream isn't all that much better than vitex - it's a bandaid, it won't address deeper causes.
It's cheaper to do the
It's cheaper to do the missing nutrients ... READ the blog article, and all the comments, read up on syndrome x and the supplements needed for that (also found on this blog), and do magnesium, the Bs, D, C, multivitamins, fish oil, and flavonoid-rich fruit.
Honest. MUCH easier and cheaper than fertility treatments, and you'll feel wonderful to boot.
Continue popping all of those pills throughout your pregnancy (the baby will pull off your dietary vitamins and minerals, you NEED extra), and throughout your breastfeeding (the baby will still pull your vitamins and minerals (except D) through the breastmilk ...). If you don't, you'll get the pregnancy blues, and/or post-partum depression ...
Know that if you continue to
Know that if you continue to ONLY take vitex, and NOT the missing nutrients, you'll get your problems back with a vengeance, a month or three down the line.
Believe me. DO THE MISSING NUTRIENTS.
As to your trying minerals and taking multivitamin, you 1) have to take large enough doses, and 2) do them all at the same time - not Bs this week, minerals next.
Go for the full set of
Vitex and bleeding
OK, this article and comments are very interesting. I, too, had fallen under the Vitex spell until i JUST NOTICED what has been happening now that i am 49. when i was younger, the vitex did not have ill effects. i took it on and off over the years, as espoused by many women's herbal books. however, now, i am noticing that it causes bleeding - doesn't stop/regulate it. whatever is changing in my peri-menopausal body, the vitex is not helping anything. one thing it IS good for is starting your period if it seems stalled. however, once you start, STOP the godforsaken Vitex! you'll bleed forever. So here's the good part: i took it last month to start the stalled period, had a MONTH LONG period which just stopped a couple days ago (probably so long because I continued the Vitex). Since I had not made the connection yet, I just took some THIS MORNING thinking, oh, let me take my blessed Vitex. BAM! Period is back just 3 hours after taking it. I'm ditching the Vitex. Going to get MagCitrate, B6 (in a complex B), Zinc, and some C. I'm tired of walking around bleeding! Thank you for the wise words!
Glad you found this blog
Glad you found this blog entry. Luck!
You're not going to step out
You're not going to step out of the frying pan then? Just putting a band-aid on top of your blisters? Good for you ...
Vitex
christina
While I find it wonderful to increase my scope of herbs I found the comments a bit distrubing about Vitex being bad and evil. At university we were taught that vitex may make a women's period worse before it gets better, especially in adolescence. I appreciate that we need to look at diet as first port of call in any health problem, but don't demonise our herbs please! Ps. Have read all blogs on this issue.
Christina
VItex
My experience with vitex is contrary to what most here are saying. I've had many successes with infertility, PMS, dysmenorrhea, amenorrhea, and more. I believe it may be a question of dose as I generally use 15-30 drops of tincture once per day, which is considerably less than the 500 mg several times per day suggested by some manufacturers. Of course I do the nutrients with most also so perhaps it's the combination? I love this herb and will continue to cure women's issues with it. I encourage those who want an opposing view to read up on this in Christopher Hobbs' book, "Vitex: The Women's Herb". http://books.google.com/books?id=5J...
VITEX WARNING
I have to write this because I think people deserve to know stories like these.
To improve my fertility I was put on a herbal mix by Famous Naturopath in Sydney Australia which included Vitex, even though I told naturopath that I had reacted badly with recurrent bleeding to vitex a year earlier. Anyway, while on this formula, for the first time in my life at the age of 38, I had a 55 day cycle and didn't ovulate until I finally went to an acupuncturist and ovulated the day after it on day 41! This is totallly unheard of for me - the longest cycle I have ever had was 30 days.
I had been on the formula with vitex for 6 weeks before this psycho cycle started and I had weird spotting straight after my period which freaked me out and I stopped the vitex immediately. I felt like I was in the twilight zone with anovulatory temps all over the place and my OPKs being positive with fast dark lines for over 10 days straight which is totally NOT normal and no one could explain anything to me. I was completely freaked out by it and so angry and sad - so much for all the "stay calm, don't stress" stuff - I was fine and calm before I took this stuff.
My next cycle was then 36 days with ovulation on day 21. I am now in my next cycle and hoping I will be getting more back to what I was before - an average cycle of 27 days. Needless to say I think Vitex is evil and I have wasted more than 3 months of my precious time and have been so stressed by it all that I want to kill Famous Naturopath.
Whatever you do, BEFORE you touch ANY herbs of any sort, get a full blood test done of all your levels of FSH, E2, LH etc so you know who YOU are before vitex and other things can mess you up. If you had a good experience with Vitex then you are lucky but it has royally wrecked by cycles and it's pretty devastating. I am now hoping that TCM and acupuncture can put me right.
Whatever you do, DO NOT self medicate with VITEX - from my experience it is a fast acting and hugely powerful herb that can set you months and months backwards rather than forwards if it doesn't like you.
Estrogen Levels
Hello! Was just reading this blog and aside from dopamine... since Vitex is reputed to help raise progesterone levels... and if someone still gets PMS-D (premenstrual syndrome depression) or gets worse as in the above case... it could be due to a lack of estrogen and NOT progesterone! Which means if someone is taking Vitex then they are working at correcting the wrong hormone. Sure dopamine has its role in depression, but so do estrogen levels along with progesterone levels. In females they have a delicate balance and should never be separated.
You can read more about it in this article addressing vitex and suicidal depression... http://medherb.com/Materia_Medica/V...
It all comes back to this basic guideline... if one thing works for one person, then it is not going to work for someone else necessarily. If vitex is making your symptoms worse, then there's probably some other kind of hormone imbalance that you are missing. Always consider estrogen first if something that is supposed to help with progesterone seems to aggravate symptoms. That and there could always be an insufficient nutritional need. Taking a really good multivitamin like from NSI at vitacost.com or the GNC multi-vit are very good and I highly recommend them.
Fish oil (or Omega 3's that you can find in plant sources as well... NSI also sells this kind) is also very effective in helping with depression in some cases. Someone like me, I HATE eating fish! So the capsule works very well for me and I have seen an improvement in depression symptoms... but I also take Zoloft and I have to take Lamictal for anti-seizure (also good for bipolar, but I don't have that). I have been told it will be OK for me to pregnant as long as blood tests are done to make sure of the health of the baby. And I have been taking Vitex and it seems to be working well with me so far. In fact, it seems to have increased my energy level (which I usually don't have a lot of) and helps lift my mood as well!
I might be another fertility success with this, but if not oh well. But pls ppl! Always check your nutritional needs first with a good multi-vit which helps with hormones and everything else in the body. THEN take a look at the hormones. You may need to see an endocrinologist to determine what kind of hormonal imbalance you have and you can take it from there. Also remember, scientists still don't know all of the hormones that regulate the body. They know some of the main ones, but there are still so many to discover. We are all fearfully and wonderfully made! Hormones... the blessing and the curse! LOL
What form?
It is good to have these reports of side effects from taking a herb but unfortunately hard to make any real sense from it unless people report exactly what they were taking. A 15-drop per day dose of a 1:5 tincture (200 mg per ml, in this case 0.5 ml or 100 mg per day of actual herb) is a far cry from the 500 mg 3X per day dose I have seen recommended on many product labels. An in-vivo study showed anterior pituitary shut-down at high doses whereas a progesterone-toning effect at low doses. Read more here in an article by Kerry Bone: http://www.nutritionalwellness.com/... "According to a survey of professional herbalists conducted in the U.K. in 1997, the average dose of chaste tree used was approximately 500 mg/day DHE.17 Clinical trials in PMS and mastalgia have used DHE of approximately 120 to 240 mg/day. For LHP, similar doses have been shown to be effective. However, doses used to influence melatonin levels were much higher (600 mg to 2.4 g DHE per day). Such doses can be used to treat insomnia, especially sleep maintenance insomnia. In conditions such as endometriosis and fibroids, for which a significant estrogen antagonist effect is needed, doses of at least 2 g/day DHE may be required and typically are used by professional herbalists. The use of chaste tree in the treatment of PCOS is controversial and may depend on the hormonal profile of each individual patient. It will be most indicated in cases in which prolactin is elevated and dosage will be influenced by the level of prolactin."
And now, please try to do
And now, please try to do the missing nutrients. And report back, in another month or two. Thanks!
I have tried the nutritional
I have tried the nutritional route to cure my acne. I take all those vitamins, minerals, eat well, have cleansed colon and liver and do liver support... and exercise... and all the other lifestyle decisions that help the acne condition, but I am still struggling. I turned to Vitex as when I am on the contraceptive pill with an anti prostate cancer drug called androcur - I have flawless skin. When I am not on those I have acne-ridden, extremely reactive/ sentive skin. So I was trying to find a "less" harmful approach to the above mentioned drugs and have started Vitex with Saw Palmetto (as it is apparent from my experience, with what works for me, that I have a testertone sensitivity). But perhaps I should just start with the saw palmetto as that will help my body (take the testertone pressure off) while I wait for my body to get balance back with the EFA, vitamins, minerals and balanced diet. Could I get your guys thought on this? I have been on this journey of tacking the route of acne rather than the symptom for almost 2 years now (dedicated) and I am hoping someone else can help add one more piece to the puzzle.
Thanking you in advance.
roxy
Do vitamin D in large doses,
Do vitamin D in large doses, plus the supplement set outlined in the blog post above, in order to curb your depression.
... take the supplement set
... take the supplement set as outlined in the blog post.
weight gain?
I started vitex. evening primrose oil and DIM a week ago for terrible PMS (mood swings and major irritability) last Wednesday. By Friday I was very tearful and felt generally depressed. It's gotten worse daily. Today (after my 14th crying spell) I got on the scale and discovered I've gained 5 pounds in 3 days. What on earth? I see lots of support for the depression being caused by vitex. Anyone heard of overnight weight gain? I'm assuming that it has to be water weight as I've done nothing different in my diet...
So you have no experience of
So you have no experience of side effects from Vitex. That doesn't invalidate the people who post their comments here who DO have side effects from it.
An experienced practitioner takes that on board and looks for signs of similar troubles in his / her clients ... that's a better response than rejecting any negative experience out of hand.
Your slamming of my blog is childish.
You can't be all that widely read a herbalist, if you don't know who Paul Bergner is ... look up "Medical Herbalism", _the_ journal for practitioners.
Finally, a ND stands for Doctor of Naturopathy. There are 4 years-long hands-on schools in the US and Canada who actually CAN hand out real ND diplomas, acknowledged in states who license real NDs.
I'd question anybody who wants to call themselves doctor without the rigorous schooling required ... and/or who hands out "ND" degrees to the gullible.
In the middle
Hi I've been taking vitex now with evening primrose oil now for about 6 weeks. I have adenomyosis and was sufferering pretty badly with pms and depression and really sore pimples on my back around that time of the month. I also bled really heavily. This has been the first time in a long time (about 3 years) that I have felt this normal. I didn't get the pimples this time and I also haven't been feeling depressed. I feel like I can cope easily with pressure again also. In saying this however, I have noticed in the last week or so my hair feels like it's thinning and my skin is quite dry. I also don't want to be taking heaps of manufactured vitamins either so i'm unsure whether or not to take the vitex and feel good but look bad :( anyway I agree with some of the other comments in regards to everyone is different so different things work for different people.
Seeing that Vitex strengthens
Seeing that Vitex strengthens the progesterone part of the cycle your high progesterone levels aren't all that surprising. Go for the minerals and vitamins!
Dunno ... menstrual cramps
Dunno ... menstrual cramps generally stop completely once you get enough _magnesium_.
Yes, it really is as simple as that.
(And PMS is helped by magnesium + liver herbs ... it's not rocket science, it's dietary deficiencies, and too few bitters in our food.)
1st, herbs aren't medicines,
1st, herbs aren't medicines, not even close. They don't kill thousands of people every year ...
2nd, it's silly to say that you should see a doc if you want to take herbs. Docs have no clue whatsoever about herbs ... not even chamomile.
Other than that, I do suggest you do the minerals and vitamins outlined in the blog post, if you also do vitex.
For the bleeding, capsella
For the bleeding, capsella works nicely.
For the underlying problem, you should go see a herbalist, locally, against payment.
... wee-eee-eeell. Try the
... wee-eee-eeell. Try the supplements outlined in the blog post everybody commented on, and see where that leaves you after the next two periods. You should be fine by then ...
Yes, the nutrients would be
Yes, the nutrients would be better than vitex for you. Do the lot, and add b12 to the mix, too, if you still are a vegetarian. (You'll get _lots_ of iron from nettles, or from floradix ("Kräuterblutsaft") and similar herb juice blends. Do that every day for at least a month, then 2-3 times a week after that.)
Luck!
I have been taking agnus
I have been taking agnus catsus for about 6 months. I had a 2 week break about 3 months ago as became very ill and though I had zinc poisoning, but thinking back it could be realted to vitex. i have been taking 2x1000mg per day. Over the last couple of months I have become increasingly tired with no energy and feeling anxious and faint. Over the last couple of weeks I have been suffering from severe depression and anxiety and feel like im losing my mind! Ive been to see my GP who said im suffering from depressing and wanted to put me on antidepressants which I delclined. I stopped taking the agnus castus just over a week ago but am still feeling the same although not as bad. How long am I going to feel like this for, Im not sure how much longer I can take it?? The reason I was taking this was to improve my acne which really has helped but now im having to stop it and my acne is returning which is making me more depressed. I also take fish oil, starflower oil, vitamin c, magnesium and zinc. Is there anything else I should take or any of them I should stop to make me feel better faster? I dont know what to do for the best, I opinion would be appeciated, thank you.
Take the supplements
Take the supplements mentioned in the blog post you're responding to.